It would be very hard and far beyond the scope of this test patch to make the AI generation work in a separate thread so it doesn't hang between updates while it iterates the path improvements. You should generate offline (and outside of VR) any AI paths you want to use. Maybe you could use a separate LFS instance.

About the speed of AI, it's not your fault but I'm getting a bit tired of explaining so many times, the AI's driving ability (handling of one car, nothing to do with the overtaking) is all specific to the tyre model in question and has already been improved to some extent in the development version, but I will not be working on that for the public version, as it would be pure wasted time.

Nothing about their speed has got worse in the test patches, as I haven't worked on that. But you could verify by starting an earlier exe, run a single AI and see if the lap times are the same. That's your job as a tester really. I assert that their lone car driving ability is not changed. You are welcome to prove me wrong.

First I must say this is not a request thread. Second, your description doesn't mean anything to me. Maybe it's something to do with the fuel usage feature that has already been added? Options - Display - Extra status info?

Please only post here if it is something to do with the test patch. It's very difficult trying to stay on top of everything.

OK, here is another update for AI, Test Patch D42. You should find it a lot safer and better in the pit lane. Also overtakes from a lower speed are better judged (avoided if there is no chance to pass safely because there is not enough time to accelerate).

I still want to look at the max braking judgement calculation, to make it take account of brake balance.


AI:

Improved driving in pit lane when close behind other drivers
Overtaking decision from low speed now allows for acceleration
FIX: Choice of pit stop box was wrong (bug introduced in 0.7B)
FIX: Slow start / stuck in pit stop if max torque at very low rpm
FIX: Errors in fuel calculation related to "Refuelling allowed"

Game:

Reset is now possible during a pit stop if the state is "finished"
FIX: Auto shift *up* did not work if max power rpm above redline

Interface:

FIX: Wrong info was shown in new F11/F12 display in Test Drive mode
FIX: Crash if /track command was used while generating AI path info


https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

GT4_PL thank you for the comparison videos. They are entertaining. I am pleased to see D41 taking more care, crashing less.

EDIT:

I see that sometimes in D41 the result can be not as good as D40, but there are other examples with a lot of crashing in D40, that doesn't take place in D41. Example, my test with 5 bikes followed by, UF1, XRT, FOX at SO Classic, in D40 the cars would hit the bikes a lot more.

I'm still convinced D41 is better, even if sometimes an AI holds back when we really know it should try to pass. Anyway, D40 was considering passes on *individual* cars ahead, then going if all possible passes were in agreement. Instead, D41 considers the cars ahead as a group, then decides "pass left / pass right / brake". It's a better method which is more predictable. Of course, AI can be improved so much, I could work on it for years or decades. But my main aim was to stop AI ramming and ignoring other cars and bikes.

Last edited by Scawen, Mon 2 Oct 2023, 13:13.

Thank you all very much for the feedback and reports since Friday's test patch (D41).

Tankslacno, that must be the best presented patch report I have ever received!

I am fixing the things which are definite bugs, especially if they were introduced recently. Some things won't be fixed but I will look at all the reported issues and see what I can do in a short time.


NOTE: I seriously want to move away from AI, as soon as possible, to get back to finish and release the recent updates to the mods editor and system (the intermediate, incompatible patch with the existing physics and graphics). So I'm just trying to round off the most important issues.

I've released D41 with the improved overtaking.

Quote :

Interface:

Simple versions of F11/F12 displays are now available during an SPR

AI:

Better line following by bikes (contact patch / effective weight)
Overtakes are considered on a group instead of only individuals
More distant consideration of other vehicles at high speed
Better collision avoidance when close behind or beside
Better estimate of the possibility and duration of a pass
When planning an overtake, time is allowed to pull in after pass
Possible to reset if an approaching vehicle is moving slowly enough
Less rapid turning of the wheel when initiating a pass

I think it's a lot better but there are some remaining issues:

- There is sometimes a hesitation when the AI wants to make a pass, and is just behind and correctly offset from the car in front, so it appears that it should go for it at that point but hangs back a bit.

- Sometimes an AI may collide with another vehicle mid corner, because it has gone in too fast and although it wants to brake, it doesn't think it has enough spare grip to apply the brakes strongly enough.

- They are still a bit too keen to overtake when their current speed is low, because they aren't taking account of the time it will take to accelerate to the speed they should be at.

- Another mistake that I see often is where the vehicle in front has a different line, and can come across in front of the AI behind which doesn't expect that to happen, then there can be a crash.

- I've looked at the calculation for braking and think there is (and always has been) an issue where it assumes the brake balance is *just right* for each corner. I wonder if I can make the braking adapt for the actual brake balance, but I don't have time for that at least today or tomorrow.

- Obviously they are still not as fast as real drivers but I won't be tackling that for this round of test patches.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Thanks for the comments. I've been running a pretty tough test case repeatedly while I make the improvements. In my debug setups it is deterministic so the same thing happens every time if I don't make any changes.

It's South City Classic with this grid of 5 bikes and 3 cars:

TSR500
REAPER X1
VULCAN 998
CRUISER
SZK 1300R
UF 1000
XR GT TURBO
FORMULA XR

On some rare occasions they have made a lap without any serious collisions. It's hard work trying to get these vehicles to avoid each other as they have such different speeds and lines. Still, I think it's getting better but my head is spinning quite a bit. It is incredibly confusing and frustrating, as any change to fix one problem tends to also have unintended consequences or introduce new bugs.

I look forward to handing it over to you guys for some more testing and I will check your comments again. Some of them are definitely problems I have been trying to deal with.

It's been a longer diversion than expected bit I do believe it is important.

I actually find it easier to work when people don't constantly antagonise me.

And you are trying to bug me, because I have told you countless times that this is the test patch thread, which is to discuss changes in the test patch. There is no other purpose for this thread.

I'm working 11 hours a day trying to finish things to get onto the other thing I was working on, so I can get back onto the other thing i was working on before that.

But your constant nagging at me, just makes me annoyed, less willing to put in that amount of work time. It may be a strange concept, but not really surprising when you think about it, that it's easier to work for people if they aren't annoying you.

Quote from Viperakecske :

How do we fix fps stuttering when someone leaves the pit whit mod car?

1) If there is a bad glitch with a particular mod, you should talk to the mod creator and make sure they use the latest editor test patch. Since editor version D26 there are limits on the number of triangles in the second LOD (shadow LOD). Often mod creators have been lazy and instead of spending a short time to make a low poly shadow mesh, they instead made a direct copy of the main mesh. The recent editor test patches impose limits on that.

2) In the development version which we are all waiting for, there is delayed texture loading, so the car is initially created, but the textures load over subsequent graphical frames, instead of loading them all at once.

3) This has nothing to do with the test patch.

Thanks for the report. That crash isn't in the LFS.exe module so I can't narrow it down to the region of code that caused it. There are some undocumented crash fixes in the test patches, related to mods that have not yet loaded, so I hope maybe one of those fixes is the reason why the test patches aren't crashing.

Of course, the best racing is with real players. But they aren't always available when you want to race, and some people (sometimes) enjoy racing alone without the need to interact and cooperate with other people. So there will always be a need for AI drivers.

I've done some AI improvements in the last few test patches. You can read the descriptions here, see the notes for D37 to D40:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Feedback will be welcome, on the test patch thread. There are definitely some improvements but please let me know if I've made something worse by mistake. AI is pretty tricky to get right!

Thanks for that, I was able to reproduce it in a deterministic game setup. It turns out a bit of an obscure bug that could sometimes cause AI to hit the brakes if they are slightly faster than another other car, but the other car is accelerating.

It seems like an old bug that has been there forever, but maybe it became slightly more likely to happen in the latest patch. It wouldn't be limited to the start grid, so maybe there will be some times out on the track when a car would have braked momentarily for no apparent reason.

I'll release another test patch with this and probably another couple of updates either today or tomorrow.


EDIT: Unfortunately, this bug fix hasn't magically fixed the issue where a faster car gets stupidly stuck behind a slower car, all the way down a long straight.

Last edited by Scawen, Fri 15 Sep 2023, 16:54.

D39 is now available with AI improvements. I recommend deleting the bike AI paths created in test patches D37 or D38 (since 11 September) as the bikes now have a narrower theoretical width. Existing paths will still work but new ones will allow the bikes to use a bit more of the track.

Bike AI:

Smaller assumed width (closer passing distance / better lines)
For best results, delete bike knw files from data\knw folder
(generated since 11 September in D37 or D38 test patches)

Overtaking AI: (all vehicles)

Various improvements to improve the overtaking decisions
There should be fewer dangerous overtakes in braking zones

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Thanks for the feedback. I've released D38 with three changes to much improve the mass pileup issue.

AI should be less likely to try passing in braking zones
FIX: AI can now reset if in contact with a stationary vehicle
FIX: AI will not cut engine after 40 seconds waiting to reset

I hope it doesn't break anything! The 'FIX' items are easy to test but it's a lot harder for me to test and confirm the results of the passing improvement. I think they make fewer bad passes because they take into account their predicted lower speed because they are braking. Although I did still see a pass that was obviously a bad idea, so I'm not certain how much better it is.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

EDIT: The fix "AI can now reset if in contact with a stationary vehicle" will not work if you are online, until new servers are released. That is because when online the "safe to reset" decision is made on the server.

Last edited by Scawen, Tue 12 Sep 2023, 17:42.

I've done some AI updates and copied them into the D37 test patch.

AI can now drive objects (do nothing) or motorbikes (slowly)

EDIT: AI can also enter in configs with no path, but will just sit there.

This started from a request to allow the AI to use objects, so they can be tested offline. It's an old thing on my list. But it seemed best to allow all mods, not just objects. That means motorbikes had to be supported. Well, a "few hours" turned into quite a few days. So, sorry about the delay to other things. I have stopped short of trying to really get the best out of them. There are issues with the tyre physics and the bikes actually work better in the new tyre physics.

If you are interested in object mods or bikes, please have a go with the new AI code. It was hard to get them to go round at all on bikes, then there was quite a struggle to get them to leave or enter pits. Hopefully I haven't broken anything for the other AI!

EDIT: Some bikes are too wobbly and crash too often, but maybe you can let me know if enough bikes seem to ride OK at enough tracks.

I know some people will be upset at another delay, but this is an important part of finishing the mods system. Other people will have fun using these AI updates. I've still got the incompatible updates including wheel rim improvements to release in the next few days.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Last edited by Scawen, Mon 11 Sep 2023, 18:25.

Quote from versiu :

Hope for separate FFB strenght setting per car in the future <3

I know it's a bit laborious but I just want to make sure you know, you can use a CAR.lfs script to implement a /ff command for that vehicle. E.g. XRT.lfs in the script folder. You can write such scripts for mods too, with names like SKINID.lfs

Quote from Viperakecske :

Can i upload hotlaps in newest test patch?

I can't remember, but think I asked Victor for that some time ago. I don't know if it applies to these test patches or not. Maybe you can try, and if you can't, then let me know and I'll ask Victor?

Hi Morfeas,

A solution is now available. Sorry you had to wait so long.

I was working on something else related to gear shifts so I decided to focus on this specific issue today. I have now made it so that a "fake key press" initiated by a mouse wheel move now lasts for 100ms.

Previously it was as if the key was only pressed for one physics frame, which was not long enough to do the gearshift. Although the ignition cut happened (as you said) the drive train did not become unloaded during that single physics frame, to allow the shift to take place.

The solution seems very reliable to me. I hope you can test it when convenient.

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Thanks, you can try the FF display in Test Patch D36.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117

Thanks for the reports.

For three issues, I've released a minor update, Test Patch D35.

Quote from henricat2006 :

I don't know if it's the right place to report this bug, but depending on the position of the camera, the motorcycle's handlebars disappear, if you set it as a steering wheel, this doesn't happen.

FIX: Mudguard / handlebar / trailing arm remain visible if wheel is off screen

Quote from chucknorris :

Ah yea, maybe that option should be on by default and off by opting in.

Misc option "Full physics for remote cars" is now enabled by default

Quote from chucknorris :

I've came across another issue related to narrow cars.

It seems like when the track width is below a certain value (eg 800mm), the cars are getting "sucked in" into objects.

FIX: Narrow cars were sucked in if driven too close to fence or narrow barrier

Hello mod developers.

As many of you know, I am trying to get to a full version release so that all racers get the benefit of the recent updates, which I won't list here (you can read the first post of the editor test patch thread).

I noticed that some people, who want better looking wheels, have been using workarounds for deficiencies in the wheel rim system. So I really had to sort that out, even if it delays this full version release and my subsequent work on tyre physics. Sorry to the physics purists but I can't really leave the editor with such glaring issues. Wheel designs are very important and some people are putting a lot of effort into their mods. It's not good to have more and more mods with workarounds for a system that needs changing. So I have worked for a few weeks on this system for rim and wheel graphics.

Here I will list the updates and then post a few pictures:


The new lighting system affects both the rim and spoke objects. The lighting at each vertex depends on its depth in the wheel and the direction it faces, by an approximation system that is also affected by the "concealed wheels" setting (that makes it darker on the inside).

I think this ambient lighting should also be applied to any 'brake' or 'hub' objects that are found, because they are also within the wheel cylinder. But let me know if there are other uses for such objects, that mean the new lighting shouldn't be applied to them.

More notes:

I would advise mod makers not to use rim workarounds for now, as the auto repair is likely to affect the look of your work in the rim flange area. It's probably best to go along with the default LFS rims at the moment. If you do use workarounds, please be ready to fix your mods as soon as the update is released.

The update will be incompatible. Not for physical reasons, but simply because the file format is updated. That means, old LFS will no longer be able to load mods saved with the new version. There will be a test patch that can load the newly saved mods, of course. I will start a few test servers for people to test their mods, during the short period of time when the incompatible test patch is out and we are in final testing before the official update. I hope that period will be only around two weeks, to allow enough time for testing.

You must follow the installation instructions correctly.

Install a fresh new version of LFS editor then install the test patch.

This is not a new issue related to the test patch. I think you need to ask in the technical assistance section.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/5-Technical-Assistance

You will need to say which wheel you are using and which version of the drivers you are using, which version of Windows, etc. Maybe someone has come across the same problem and can help you.

LFS force feedback works properly with most wheels, so this is most likely a problem on your computer, not an LFS bug.

Or maybe I misunderstood you... you say something about changing wheels? Maybe there is a specific sequence of events that causes the problem. Then maybe you need to report in the bugs section. Either way, please be very detailed in your explanation, so we have some idea how to help you.

But as Flame says, this is not related to the test patch, so we do not discuss it here.

Quote from Marty_Deslions :

I must admit that the prolonged silence has left me a bit concerned.

I'll start by linking to a couple of threads which show a lot of the work I have been doing recently:

Test Patch D33: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117
Editor Test Patch D40: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102626

As you can see, particularly on the Editor Test Patch thread, I have made a huge number of improvements for the mod support. I find it a great thing that LFS is a way for people to be creative, and the mods system is a massive new part of that. It was very "new" indeed when released (basically a bunch of dev editors brushed up a bit) which is why there have been so many issues to sort out.

In the past months, while I have been doing these, Eric was at first finishing South City, which took a lot longer than he anticipated. Filling those holes is not easy, and he likes to fill them just as people would actually "fill the holes" when building a real city. I received an update recently and tested it, reported a bunch of issues and he fixed those. We find the completion level very good now, basically good enough for public testing when we can get the full version together. He is now working on the Kyoto improvements. As you may know from the official progress reports, that was never finished before Eric moved onto the South City, that turned into an epic development and massive expansion.

On my side, I'm trying to finish test patch things so that I can finally complete the tyre physics. In fact my current focus is on wheels, both in the development and public version. In the public version there should be a graphical update for wheels in the next few days, to go along with the many updates there have been for mods. Again, please read the test patch threads to know what I'm talking about.

There is also other work I do, that you never see, such as updates for the track editor. Suppose Eric is doing a task and finds he has to do something in a laborious or repetitive way and one of us thinks of a new editor function that could help him achieve certain tasks more quickly, then I always want to stop whatever else I was doing and work on the track editor for a few days.

I'm trying to get to an official release so my focus can then be entirely on the tyre physics in the development version. It has taken me much longer than expected to complete this round of test patches as there were so many unfinished things in the mods system. When I see creators, working hard and having to use workarounds for issues, I feel a great responsibility to get that issue sorted out.

Of course, the priorities I attach to various tasks, will not be the same as someone else's priority. We all have different priorities, so there's not a person in the world who could agree with all my choice of tasks to work on. But I must work on what I feel is important. Actually I find it a huge mental effort to complete these tasks, and that's why I need to follow the inspiration. Sometimes I'm awake at night working out how to do something, then experimenting and testing, it's a lot of work.

It takes a long time, but there is always progress.

Thanks for the test!

Test patch D32 now has support for the new hub objects that can be added in Editor D39.

Also:

Regional downloads (for mods) can be disabled by a new Misc Option
A yellow redirect message is shown the 1st time you are redirected
Hold CTRL in Garage: Mods button becomes Test (direct to Test mode)
Opening mods screen is prevented if a rating request is in progress

FIX: Crash enabling filter in List of Hosts after all were disabled
FIX: Small camera movement on releasing LMB after 2-button rotation

https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/102117